Isaac [Drummond] LaRoche (P643243)

 

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 Isaac [Drummond] LaRoche  (P643243)

 

Referred to as Drummond because of his mother's maiden name. b.1783 - d.1822

 

Spouse Elizabeth Sophia [Oliver] LaRoche
(Family Tree P643271)

 

What was the heritage of the father of Isaac [Drummond] LaRoche (http://www.genebase.com/node/P643243) ? Short Answer: the father of Isaac [Drummond] LaRoche was named Isaac (either middle or first name), and, I believe (but cannot prove), is related to one of the Georgia Trustees, as a son, grandson, cousin or nephew. The graphic above (while complicated) shows, in a summary form, that the father of Isaac LaRoche, I believe is related to one of the Trustees of Georgia. That line goes back to France and the de la Croix family (not a LaRoque line) -- see http://www.LaRocheUSA.org/HISTOIRE.HTM#Peter.

Peter CROTHAIRE a derivation of de la Croix, was a Huguenot immigrant to England. This Peter changed his name from "de la Croix" to LaROCHE when he immigrated and became an English citizen. Peter CROTHAIRE dit LaRoche served George the Prince of Denmark (whose father was Frederik III, King), who was married to Anne (daughter of James II, King of England). She would later become Queen. The change in Peter's last name appears connected to his service to the royal family. His origin (his parents are known from Huguenot records in London as having lived in Aix -- he was said to be born in Nai -- today's Nay SE of Pau) was from the former Kingdom of Béarn then a part of France (Note: Pau is the capital city today of this French Province today). The city of Dax is downriver from Pau and near the border with Béarn and in the native tongue means the same thing as "Aix" - a Gallo-Roman town of thermal springs. There is no Aix in Béarn, but there are several towns there with thermal springs and a Gallo-Roman heritage.

NOTE Typical service: LabochbfoucatjlD) Fbedehiob [sic-LaRochefoucald, Frédéric): Charles de, Count de Roye: an able officer of Louis XIV., field-marshal under Turenne, who served in the great campaigns between 1672 and 1683. He left France at the Revocation [of the Edict of Nantes], first entering the Danish service, in which he held the post of grand-marshal. He afterwards settled in England. He died at Bath (England) in 1690. His son Frederick William was a colonel of one of the six French regiments sent to Portugal under Schomberg. He was promoted to the rank of major-general, and was raised to the peerage (for life) under the title of Earl of Lifford in Ireland. http://www.archive.org/stream/huguenotstheirs02smilgoog/huguenotstheirs02smilgoog_djvu.txt (p.407)

Peter CROTHAIRE dit LaRoche also spent some time in Bordeaux [p.407] before leaving France. His brother was named John (of Paul Mall), not to be confused with the John a Member of Parliament from Bodmin, who was Peter's son. There is no mention, of which I can find, of John of Paul Mall's children names or birth/death information. Peter and John may have at least one other brother, possibly named James or Henri. A son of Peter named James was a shipping merchant from Bristol and James' maternal grandfather was named Isaac. So, perhaps there is a direct relationship to Peter of the first Isaac in Georgia, but existing records to not show heirs of the correct name or age to have been in Georgia. John LaRoche and James LaRoche were Georgia Trustees. Moreover, John introduced and sponsored James into the company of investors from which the trustees were selected, which suggests a close relationship beyond just a common name.

The official Georgia Trustee list only has one John La Roche MP amongst the British members (MP 1722-48 Trustee 1732-52). He was a Bristol Merchant and the business carried on till the credit crunch in the late 1790's. Was it his son who went bankrupt in south Carolina in 1752/3? being the son of Peter and Grandfather to the second MP -James La Roche, Bristol Merchant, was MP for Bodmin 1768-80, became Sir James La Roche (Bart. -- now extinct) and married the daughter of William Yeamans the Antiguan plantation owner (Elizabeth Rachel Ann Yeamans), believed to be childless, hence the wide distribution of his assets at that time. Or was it his only son (Captain John) lost at sea from one of his ships ? We do not know, except there is no further descendant on that line that we can find. The Yeamans Family (Williams brother) were Brewers and Merchants and near neighbours (in Westbury) to the Sir James La Roche estate ("Overcourt Manor") at Almonsbury in Gloustershire (demolished 1920's).

The book written by Samuel Smiles (The Huguenots) published 1865, updated 8 times to 1905, details throughout the probable reasons for name changes by the aristocracy such as possibly here. The determination of Roi Louis 14th to crush the non-Catholics and take their assets before they forcibly left France, to some extent failed; therefore, he sent assassins throughout Europe to track down and kill if necessary to recover that which he regarded as his own property and wealth. One reason for name changes would be then to disguise the original French family origin or family name. LaRoche was already an English family name, too.

There was an Isaac LaRoche who died, I believe in 1768 in Savannah, leaving shipbuilding tools. The person named Isaac (http://www.genebase.com/node/P1476949) who died in 1789 may have been his son, because he lists his profession in a land purchase-related affidavit as shipbuilding, too; moreover, the land involved could have belonged to this earlier Isaac (purchased in 1759). Other unsupported DAR records found in the Georgia State Archives suggest that Thomas LaRoche (no mention of the middle name of Isaac) may have been the father of Isaac [Drummond] LaRoche. One just cannot say at this point. A son named Isaac was born to Henri de La Roche and Susanne November 11, 1699, at Glass House Street, Westminster (London).

** Note: An immediate connection to a LaRoque line is only a theory, which some believe. It relies on Thomas and Isaac (the most senior with that name who died in 1789) as being the same person; moreover, it ignores the possible English connections to some of the Georgia Trustees.** I think there may be two "LaRoche" families involved, one with clear de la Croix roots, (http://www.genebase.com/node/P643165 -- Martha LaRoche) and another from a LaRoque line (http://www.genebase.com/node/P935184 -- John LaRoche), which families are both forebears for some family members, but not all. Also, there were several other French-born "LaRoche"-named persons wandering about Georgia, South Carolina, Ireland and England at the time of Georgia's Trustee days. Finally, the information about the de la Croix family connection was erased at the Genebase.com Website. In place the LaRoque line for Thomas Isaac LaRoche that, inter alia, has him dying about 10-15 years before his parents were born ?? Briefly, I am not going to make any corrections to it. Again, I believe that the father of Isaac LaRoche is related to one of the Trustees of Georgia. That line clearly goes back to France and the de la Croix family (not LaRoque). I do not discount the possibility that LaRoque may be a family name of a spouse of an ancestor in this line.

The following is from a true cousin living in Australia (written to me in 2001)

"Eleanor Glaises/Gleyse/Gleize als Castres was born approx. 1675. She married Peter LaRoche and they had a son John. This information is taken from the work of Henry Wagner of the Huguenot Society. I have not seen any primary documents to back this up so there is an element of doubt, however, Henry was a very thorough researcher."

"One thing that adds weight to the information is that Eleanor`s brother, James, was Chief Cook for King William and Queen Mary. I believe that Peter LaRoche was also in the favor of King William."

"I suspect that James Glaises (brother of Eleanor) fled France to the Netherlands, there he was probably one of the many Huguenots who gave money to William {William of Orange} for his journey to England. James and Eleanor had a sister Marguerite who is said to have married a Huguenot refugee named Pierre Pavi. I have nothing on that family at all."

"As I said [in a previous e-mail], I descend from James Castres and I can give you his known descendants. His son Abraham was Envoy Extraordinary to the King of Portugal and he was educated for a time at Leiden University, Netherlands."

Now, one wonders if the de la Croix dit LaRoche family is an offshoot of the "de la Croix, Baron de Castries" family (with the difference between Castres and Castries lost to the ages). In 1495 it is reported (at the Collège de Castries Website -- http://collegedecastries.free.fr/castries/tourisme/histoire.htm) that William de la Croix bought the Barony of Castries ("Achat {bought} de la baronnie de Castries par Guillaume de la Croix"). At http://www.fam-delacroix.de/duccastries.html it is reported that a family line in France was known at the beginning of the 15th century as de Querret. Sometime in the 1400`s, Jean de Querret, bought or was granted a fief of the name "de la Croix," thus becoming the "Seigneurs de la Croix." Thus, subsequent descendants of the Jean de Querret (dit de la Croix), then took the de la Croix as a family name and passed it on to later generations. This appears to be the same family that acquired the de Castries title, too.

Also noted that it was until the French Revolution, that the "de la Croix de Castries" were in possession of the Saint Roch's walking staff. Roughly in 1792, when one of the de la Croix estates were ravaged, with blatant disregard for anything of historical and or family sentimental value, the revolutionists burnt it. See http://www.fam-delacroix.de/roch.html  It is unclear if there was any relation to Saint Roch, and one assumes it is a coincidence, perhaps, that Roch, LaRoche, de la Croix and de Castries are so tied together. For those who do not know --- Castries is near the Mediteranian Sea and Montpelier, in France. Castres is almost due west (50 miles) east of Toulouse --- Pau the capital of Béarn (and province of the most distant de la Croix relative that I can trace) is another 50 miles west. Pictures HERE, as well as links to cities in the area (at bottom of page).

Thomas Watkins and Sarah (Sally) Walton (her brother signed The Declaration of Independence on behalf of Georgia) were parents to Robert Watkins (b. 1763) (who married Elizabeth Walton a cousin). Robert, also known as Lieutenant Colonel Robert Watkins of ROSNEY (State Representative of Richmond County, GA), was father to Captain George Washington Watkins (who married Mary Jane Fripp) and grandfather to Eliza Marguerite Watkins. Elza married ***Oliver A. LaROCHE*** (son of Isaac LaRoche of Augusta, GA, brother to Isaac Drayton LaRoche of Savannah) on June 3, 1840 (by Rev. Edwards Neufville). They were the parents of several children, including Frank Isaac LaRoche, grandparents to William Walter LaRoche, Senior, great-grandparents to William Walter LaRoche, Junior and great-great-grandparents to this Webmaster. See also: http://watkinsfhs.net/gedcoms/gmylius/gmylius5.html

... have located a marriage document that I would like to send to you today -- the marriage of Miss Annie T. LaRoche to William E. Dunwody of Marietta, GA. The dates are as follows: 3 Jan 1870, which I think is the date that they applied for the marriage and 3 Jan 1870 {sic} which is the date that they were actually married. They were married by Samuel Benedict, M.G. This book also states that Rev. Samuel Benedict, 1869 was at St. John's Episcopal Church. (Co. Marriages; Sholes, p. 135.) This book is: Marriages of Chatham County, Georgia Volume II, 1852-1877, Compiled by the Genealogical Committee of Georgia Historical Society, Savannah, Georgia (1993). Publication made possible by a grant from the R. J. Taylor, Jr. [ed note: former US District Judge ED Tenn and my wife's cousin through her father's side]

List of Children of Isaac [Drummond] and E.S. LaRoche

James LaRoche (P643197)
(middle name Archibald, b 1811 ?)

Lawrence LaRoche (P690540)

Sarah LaRoche (P690543)

***Oliver Augustus LaRoche (P690548)***

Adrian LaRoche (P690562)

John LaRoche (P690566)

Isaac Drayton LaRoche (P795973)

Another line to consider: Grace Martha La Roche was the daughter of James Charles (b.1874) and Martha (née Knight). His father was James Charles la Roche (b. 4/1848) wife Julia Elizabeth (née Taylor), his father was James La Roche (b. 3/1826) wife Elizabeth Sarah (née Taylor), his father was David La Roche (b. 1780) wife Sarah (née Hoskins), his father was David La Roche (b. 1742) wife Elizabeth, his father was Peter La Roche (b. 1709) wife Catherine (née Janes)

New September 2009: John La Roche 1690-1753 became MP for Bodmin (1722 - 1747), and is believed, by some, to be born in SC as emigrée from France, with strong Cornwall ties. Was Trustee for Georgia and against Slave use initially, He had 7 children, 2 wives, Mary UK or Fr (4 Children) and Mary Elizabeth married in SC 1714 (3 Children) including another John & Charles. James Charles La Roche & Elizabeth Sarah (Taylor) were married. J C La Roche (1850-1933) was my G.G. father. Westminster (London) Tailor Cezar (César) La Roche (1676-1731) was my 6 gr.g. father -- (m***@hotmail.com) [ed note: can find no Internet verification for the name Cezar ou César; also inform ation does not square with Harden book, but we already know it has errors].

... the La Roches in London with facts available from Peter La Roche b.1709 believed to be the son of the Westminster Tailor Cezar La Roche but not proven yet. Other children listed include Michael b.1701, Jeanne (F) b.1702, Madeleine b.1705, Maria b.1706, Peter b.1709, Paul b.1712, and half siblings Jean b.1723 & Luise b.1725. Peter married Catherine Janes in 1733 with children - John George, b.1734, Peter b. abt 1740, David b.1742, Also at that time there was another family of Peter La Roche with children Daniel b.1691, Margaret b.1692, John Michael b.1693 and Eleanor b.1704. I have the last Wills and Testaments for Cezario La Roche (1730) and a Peter La Roche (Merchant 1740), and a John La Roche (1748) but am having difficulties linking them all together. Also, have a Daniel Crohare or La Roche (Will 1713) brother of James & Peter La Roche; Later Wills include the Trustee for the Colony of Georgia and Sir James La Roche MP (1768-80).

Also we have Daniel Crohare (b.1691) and Peter La Roche working together in the Royal Household, and in 1713 were paid respectively £165 and £210 for a years work as backstairs waiters. They say they were brothers, but could this be Christian Brothers worshiping at the same Church ... Threadneedle Street French Chapel ... the first one. John La Roche (b.1698) is said to be the son of Peter La Roche and Eleanor Castres. Interesting as her father (and/or brother) - Castres was the Royal Household's chief Chef/Cook. Therefore, Peter the waiter would probably have been the more senior. possibly making him the brother of Cezario La Roche (née Clothaire) the Tailor.

New June 2010: Indeed, two of the Georgia stockholders were James and John LaRoche, but was one also Oglethorpe's kin ? Lady Eleanor Wall's father was Richard WALL of Rathkenny in Tipperary and her mother, Catherine [de la] ROCHE. Her father was Lord Roche, but which one and from where. Anyone have any good Leeds ? It is said that she was born in Ireland, so one might think she is from that line, upon which Sir Walter Raleigh and his Queen took revenge. In support is a report found in a recent Savannah Magazine:

One of the first known arrivals [to Georgia] of Irish descent was James Oglethorpe. His father was English. However, he married Eleanor, daughter of Richard Wall, Esq., of the county Tipperary, and Katherine de la Roche, of the Lord Roche's family in Ireland, which was connected by intermarriage with the Scottish house of Argyle. James Oglethorpe had close ties to Ireland throughout his life. La Roche Avenue in Savannah is believed to be named after a family member who was a trustee of the colony. http://www.savannahtourismmagazine.com/1GPSTour1.html.

Kin of Oglethorpe would be related through the Irish LaRoche family (Richard FitzGodebert (Richard, son of Godebert) who came with Strongbow to Ireland (Castletownroche in Ireland & Pembrokeshire, Wales (a flemish settlement)); or one of the Flemish de la roche family who came first to England with William in 1066). Their coat of arms shows 3 fish facing left (as you gaze at it) on a field of red. Their lineage can be traced directly to Charlamagne. The LaRoche family fully fell out of favor during the Cromwell mess that tore apart England, but hey had been persecuted by Sir Walter Raleigh, because they remained Catholic, during the reign of Elizabeth.

Now we know by records that Trustee John LaRoche was not related to Oglethorpe as he was of French heritage. That leaves only Trustee James LaRoche to have been Oglethorpe's kin. There was a councilman in Savannah from SC, who died in the city named Thomas. There is no indication that he had children or had the middle name of Isaac. The SC LaRoche families are of French origin although some lived for a time in Ireland as Huguenot refugees.

Parents of Isaac LaRoche were

 [Thomas] Isaac LaRoche (P1476949)

 

b.? - d.1789
Real Questions exist about the first name being Thomas. The Genebase account is certainly wrong with persons being born after descendants are born.


 This Isaac married married:


 Elizabeth Drummond (P1621829)

 

Elizabeth's father possibly was: John Drummond (P1966533) (see below)

 

 

Of Scottish origin working in London -- profile at Genebase.com has the same information found  below

 

An unknown mother (P1966491)

About John Drummond:

Yaroslav, King of the Rus [Viking-Russia] gave one daughter [Anastasia Yaroslavna of Kiev} in marriage to Andrew I of Hungary [Andras I], whose mother was the daughter of the great Varangian-Rus privateer, Vladimir I. George, who, according to European sources, went to Britain with Edgar the Atheling, was his son. Drummond family tradition states that Maurice (son of George) was the first of the clan in Scotland but first from Hungary. Interestingly, it is the flag of St. Andrew which is Scotland's flag and the Flag of St. George which represents England. Maurice was named Thane of Lennox, a title still relished by the Drummonds, for his support during the Usurpation of Harold. Without Maurice it is likely that Margaret, the King's sister, would not have survived to meet and marry Malcolm III the King of Scots. The complete lineage back to the Rus of Kiev and Hungarian Magars can be found at: http://awt.ancestry.co.uk/ Note: Finally, some Drummonds in North America appear as a corruption of a similar sounding German name.

For a contrary view, a Mr. Fraser, in an elaborate effort entitled The Red Book of Menteith (the Menteith being in history enemies of the Drummond family, partially because a Menteith family member was thought to have turned over William Wallace to the English), has sought to prove by conclusive evidence that the Hungarian tales are just a myth. The statements about Drummond family origin are purely apocryphal, he claims. The words Drummond, Drymen, or Drummin, are just a local names used in several counties of Scotland. They derive from the Celtic word druim, a ridge or knoll. The first person who can be proved to have borne the name was one Malcolm of Drummond, who, along with his brother, named Gilbert, witnessed the charters of Maldouen, third Earl of Lennox, from 1225 to 1270. But this Malcolm was simply a chamberlain to the Earl, not a Laird in his own right, at least says Mr. Fraser, ignoring a custom of employing the children of other privileged citizens. http://www.ayrshireroots.co.uk/Genealogy/Historical/historic%20Stewart%202.htm (Mr. Fraser's theory found at page 87).

The Drummond name indeed first appears in written records about mid-13th century. Sir Malcolm de Drummond, attached himself firmly to the cause of de Bruce, future ruler of the Scots. King Robert, after the Battle of Bannockburn, bestowed upon him certain lands in Perthshire, although earlier family leaders are said to have sided with English King Edward I (also hailed as the hammer of Scotland), the protagonist in the capture and torture of Sir William Wallace. The line was allied by marriage with the Stewarts of Scotland. Annabella Drummond became the wife of King Robert III. She was crowned with him at Scone in September, 1390. Through this marriage the succeeding Kings of Scotland and of Great Britain (beginning with James I) have descended, and so there is Drummond blood in the veins of most of the crowned heads of Europe too. http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/dtog/drummon2.html

So who was the father of Elizabeth Drummond LaRoche ?  The name of John is a pure educated guess. A John Drummond was introduced to the "Georgia Corporation" by both General Oglethorpe and John LaRoche, a Trustee. John also introduced James LaRoche (no indication of relationship) on the same day. My thought is that these two men (of respectable family) are somehow related, by marriage or kinship to the Trustee John or in a close business relationship. All this occurred in August 1732, and both men bought into the endeavor (invested in the corporation). John Drummond was a director of the East India Company, a commerce commissioner for the government, a banker, and related to a nobleman (or so says the Viscount Percival in his diaries about the Georgia Colony). Drummond's Bank opened in circa 1712-17 and its clientèle was largely recruited from the Scottish connections of the founder, John Drummond. There is also another John Drummond (a cousin) who worked at the bank and perhaps a better age fit.

James Drummond, the Earl of Perth during about the same time period and James's son (also named John and also an Earl) are of unclear relation. Perhaps this James is distant cousin, or perhaps banker John Drummond is related to the Drummond family group that went to France in the 1600's during the time of Cromwell (they supported the Stuart rulers). In any event, the 3rd Earl of Perth took the wrong side in the civil war of 1745 (Scottish Rising of 1745), by supporting the Stuart (Catholic) pretender to the throne. He lost lands and titles, which were later restored to the family. John Drummond the banker, seems to have continued on, his firm helping finance the French Indian War (paymaster for the troops). One thinks that if he were Elizabeth's father, we would know; but, his support of the Crown during the Revolution (support of the Crown apparently may have sent Elizabeth's brother offshore -- or he may have always lived in the Carribean, where he died childless) may have caused family ties to be broken.

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